Vienna : pump always working

haguedick · 06.04.2009

Hallo,
First excuse me I don't speak Deutch.
Secondly, my English is not very good so be tolerant with faults!
My problem:
Recently I bought a Vienna Saeco model SUP 018M which is faulty.
I'd like to repair it.
When I switch on power , the 3 green leds light on but immediatly, the water pump is working.
So I wonder if the M5AV1-8 could have a problem or if sensor contact could be faulty.
Before I test T410, BTB06,BD245C...on board (M5AV1-8) I'd like to know :
-if it is a known problem
-if it is frequent that the micro-controller is dead (TMP47C44).
-if someone could send me electronic shematic of the board
-if you have some ideas on the question don't hesitate!

Thanks a lot for your responses.
Danke
Dominique

hmilbradt · 06.04.2009

Hi,

Welcome to the Saeco-Support-Forum.

Look at the circuit diagram of the pump -->> ViennaPumpe .... if the pump starts running immediately when power is switched on, you usually have encountered a short in the triac-varistor-combination that supports the pump. Test it and replace it if necessary. There is a remote chance that a malfunctioning microprocessor triggers the triac permanently.

-if it is a known problem

yes, it has happened a couple of times.

-if it is frequent that the micro-controller is dead (TMP47C44).

even the microprocessor will be blown sometimes. But there is a cheap replacement processor with a a lot more functions integrated compared to the Saeco processor -->> Einbauanleitung Vers. 3.10 -- Vienna-Ersatzprozessor -- Platinen M5AV1-8, M5SVV1-1 und Krups K5AV1-2---- Autor: infinityii_de

-if someone could send me electronic shematic of the board

There are no complete electronic diagrams available. They are kept secrete by Saeco. In the forum you will find only small schematics describing single functions.

regards
Harry

haguedick · 06.04.2009

Thanks for your quick response.
Ok I will test triac who command water pump.
I will surf on forum to find schematics.
However, it is hard because the Deutsch language is no not very easy for me and google traductor is not made for techical traductions.
The way will be long, but it is interesting!
Merci
Dominique

Gast13026 · 10.04.2009

Hello!

Check the micro-switch on the right side at the steam-valve and the kontacts. somtimes the kontacts not in right position and so they have kontakt and bridge the switch. or the swith himself is allways closed.

haguedick · 10.04.2009

Hallo,
T7 is good.
I have check all contacts, they works good.
I have check :
- Heizung: Z=124 Ohms
- Coffee infullung : Z=323 Ohms
- R=f(temperatur) Ã T=15°C Z=2000 Ohms
- Wasser pumpe Z=1270 Ohms
Now, I will try to run the testmode.
I you have other idea I take it!
Danke
Dom

traebbe · 10.04.2009

Hello Dominique,
check the wiring at the circuit Board, especially the blue and yello wires at JP12 and JP13.
The yello wire must be connected to JP 13, the blu to JP 12
The yello wire goes to the pump, the blue to the heater.
Greets
traebbe

hmilbradt · 10.04.2009

Hi,

If the pump is running permanently, there are only these errors possible.

1.-- either T7 or the variable resistor is broken.
2.-- the microprocessor sends a permanent on-signal for T7, which actually means the microprocessor is faulty.

regards
Harry

haguedick · 11.04.2009

Hallo!
First, thanks a lot for your responses:they help me.

What's news?

Bad news:
I have make a big fault which could be fatal, perhaps, to the micro-controller.
In order to check the power supply 5V and quality of regulation , I fist place a
oscilloscope on C1 (470uF).Of course, I forgot that I should have isolate the ground of the
scope and then...a flash in the night and house in the dark. By chance,(or it has happening
few times and it would be the reason of D1),D1 acts as a short-circuit to protect uP.
The ground of the 7805 is floating in order to drive triacs.
I should have studdy schematic before , but it's too late.
So, I replace D1, but the mesure of C1 voltage indicate 6.5V DC with ...a multimeter.
I think it's too low, then the output of 7805 is 4.4V, I should have read around 5V but not
4.4V.
The problem is I can't said if it was the value before the flash or if it is the
consequence.
Perhaps, trafo as a problem or 7805 or due to the flash the uP increase is current.The trafo
is 2VA so it can't product a lot of current.When I place an external power supply (on board, all wires disconnected!) on C1 the current is 0.2A on 12V that exceed 2VA, so it is the reason for voltage of trafo is going down because of is internal resistance.
I will try to find...without oscilloskop.
Good news:
When I bought the Vienna, the owner try surely to repare it (like me!) and then invert JP12 and JP13.I don't know if after power on the 50 Ohms must receive 220V but in this case it would be normal and then an other question come what would be the default of the Vienna?

Lot of questions, but presently no response.
I have to solve my mistake and read 5V on uP.
After, I will invert JP12 and JP13 and try to continue if I haven't killed the uP.

Good week end
Dom

traebbe · 11.04.2009

Hi Dom,
if you have 4.4 Volts, replace the 7805.
No other part is the reason for the faulty Voltage.
Maybe the ÂµP starts in this range, but didn't work correctly.
If the voltage runs under 4 Volts, the ÂµP didn't start at all.
I think, the missing heatsink to the 7805 may cause the error.
Only the new Royal has a heatsink at the 7805.
If the Output Voltage from the Trafo is over 8 Volts, the trafo may work correctly.

Greets
traebbe

haguedick · 11.04.2009

Hi Traebe,
I agree with you, the uP work surrely but not correctly.
As I have 7805 in stock, I will replace at once and tell you.
Regards
Dom

haguedick · 11.04.2009

Hi Traebbe,
I have changed 7805
Unlucky, same results:
Vin=225V AC
V out Trafo=7.6V AC
V on C1=6.1V DC
V out 7805=4.4V DC

7805 regulator must have 3-4 volts over output to work correctly.
The output voltage 4.4V must not be very clean, but uP seems to work.
Perhaps during flash Trafo has partially killed.
I will try to find an other one and try.

Regards
Dom

haguedick · 14.04.2009

Hallo!

I have loaded trafo to provide 2VA/9v : it works.
That means certainly micro controller needs more current than usualy (7805 changed too)
With an external power supply connected on C1, I have now 5V correctly to micro-controller.
However, it's always the same : despite of inverting JP13 and JP12, the 3 LEDS are green and pumpe is always running.
Outputs are in low states (0.3V) and I think; but I'm not sure; low state on uP means that Triacs are driving loads.
Lots of outputs are in low state, can't run test mode, and too much current indicate, I think, uP could be kapput.

To confirm my conclusion I have 2 questions:

-Could you confirm that low state level on uP drive Triac in conducting mode.
-When the board is supply with 230V (JP10,JP11) only; and all wirings are disconnected (sensors, pumpe, boiler,etc...) what are the output level voltage on micro-controller (pin 11,12,13,16,17,19)?

Thanks
Dom

hmilbradt · 14.04.2009

Hi,

The 7805 regulator is rated for an output of 1 A. The 2 VA-Trafo may deliver only 222 mA. If the load needs a higher current, the secondary voltage breaks down.

regards
Harry

haguedick · 14.04.2009

Hi,

I agree, when I plug an external power supply on C1, the current is 270mA.
Yes, it's too high but with only 4.4V, the micro_controller should work.
Data sheet of it tell us that mimimum supply voltage is 2.7V with fc=8Mhz.
So, with 4.4V it should work because of CMOS technology.

Regards
Dom

haguedick · 17.04.2009

Hallo,
Some news to tell you I will sold new micro-controller when I'll receive it from Autriche.
If somebody have the explanation of the new micro-controller in English it would help me for new functions.

With your help and lot of pdf and jpeg I found of forum, it was interesting to solve problem.
Presently, I have to solve a mecanical problem: the plastic of electo-magnet has been completly broken by the last owner, so I have to find a solution to fix it.
The adventure continue, whatever the end will be, happy end or not I will tell you, in few days or weeks!
Some people wrote me in Deutsch, I can't answer as I don't understand.

Thanks for your help
Dominique

haguedick · 22.04.2009

Hallo,

I have received new 8 bits prozessor: fast shipping!
It is send in Deutsch instructions for installations.
I am not familiar with this language and translates in French are not always sure.
For example I wonder :
-If there is specials instructions in order to mount processor
-if I have to remove jumper JP11
-what's happened for pin 1,2,3,5,20
-how can I activate new functions

Thks
Dom