Elektronik Gaggia synchrony logic nicht warmem Wasser vor, sendet nun kurze elektrische System

[kaos981]

Um dir schneller bei deinen Problem zu helfen, bitten wir dich folgende Angaben zu machen:
- Mechanik- und Elektronikkenntnisse vorhanden ? mittlere
- Messgerät vorhanden ? Multimeter
- Genaue Bezeichnung der Maschine Gaggia synchrony logic SUP020 PCB see photo

Hallo, ich habe gerade beigetreten und präsentiert.
Ich versuche, in einer einfachen wie möglich mit google translate schreiben. Ich hoffe, Sie werden verstehen, was ich schreibe ich bin Italienisch.
Zunächst die Kaffeemaschine hatten die LED Heizwasser blinkt, Ich habe, keine Spannungsversorgung des Kessels Widerstand.
Jetzt plötzlich nach ein paar Sekunden von etwas wird kurzgeschlossen, läuft der Motor ein paar Sekunden. Was kann es sein? Bedenken Sie, dass lief gut, bevor ich die Diskussionen, die von TIP33C sprach zu lesen, aber warum nicht erhitzen das Wasser und nun der Strom ausfällt?

Sorry, if the forum rules allow it, i can continue the topic in english..
Best regards.
Marco

 

[ksb]

Hello,

disconnect from mains and check the resistance of the water-heater (target value 50 Ohms)

If the main fuse is blown look for water inside of the machine.

Regards ksb

 

[kaos981]

hallo danke für die Antwort
der gemessene Widerstand getrennt die elektrische Verdrahtung ist 127,8 Ohm, hatte ich schon versucht, aber nicht immer den Widerstand. Weißt du, das ist der MOSFET, der es steuert?

 

[kaos981]

die Sicherung wieder funktioniert. Es unterbricht die Verbindung des Stromnetzes

 

[Grisu]

please write in english, it is not possible (at least for me) to understand this I think google-translation.

BR Grisu

 

[kaos981]

Ok, sorry..
i tried to measeure the resistance across the plugs on the boiler and it measure 127,8 ohm.. if i measure the voltage between the wires that comes to the plugs it seems to be 0 volts. Do you know what TRIAC supply the plugs? I see on the same heat sink the TIP33C for the brewer and another TRIAC Q80016LH4, maybe is this? But why the short circuit? I saw inside and i didn't find water...
Thanks for the patience

 

[Grisu]

127 is ok.

Unplug the heaters, motors a.s.o. if the short circuit is gone then. Can also be the netfilter (round white thick thing on the bottom).

To find the heat-triac follow the thick conductor tracks, one must go to only one triac Pin, thats the right one.

BR Grisu

 

[W1cht3lm@nn]

Look at the back side of the heater, there is another resistance with its 50 Ohms target value to be measured.

 

[kaos981]

Ok guys.. i see on the bottom side of the heater the other resistance but i have a problem to measure it because i can't remove the coffee dispenser unit is in halfway turn of the process (see the photo, sorry for the crappy quality...)
So i can't extract the body part of the coffemachine from its casing. Is there a way to turn manually the plastic of the dispenser unit, because as soon i switch on the coffemachine after few second the current gone and the electrical motor of the dispencer doesn't make a full turn..i hope i've explained the concept well..

 

[W1cht3lm@nn]

You could turn the brewunit by connecting a battery or laboratory power supply to the red and blue wires. Voltage has to be between 9 and 30 Volts DC.

The more comfortable way would be to first find out which component makes the fuse disconnecting the power.
To do that, it is important to know which kind of fuse that is:
Is it the over-current protection device, or instead the RCD (residual current protection device)?

In case of the RCD triggering you have to measure each component from its power connectors to its metal body. There must not be any conductance between them.

If that faulty component is found, disconnect it from the control board and switch on the power again to let it drive to the home position.

 

[kaos981]

You could turn the brewunit by connecting a battery or laboratory power supply to the red and blue wires. Voltage has to be between 9 and 30 Volts DC.

Tomorrow i'll try with an ATX 12V power supply

Is it the over-current protection device, or instead the RCD (residual current protection device)?

Yes it is...

In case of the RCD triggering you have to measure each component from its power connectors to its metal body. There must not be any conductance between them.

You mean i have to find open circuit (or infinite resistance) in ohm position in multimeter scale, right? I'll try to do this tomorrow morning
However thanks for taking time to reply me.
Marco

 

[kaos981]

Yes it is the RCD...

Marco

The RCD i mean sorry

 

[kaos981]

There are 3 cables that goes to the brewer: red, black and brown; which i have to chose for supply the motor?

 

[W1cht3lm@nn]

There are 3 cables that goes to the brewer: red, black and brown; which i have to chose for supply the motor?

None of these.
I assume these are relative thin gauge wires.
Look for another pair of much thicker cables in red and blue, coming out of the gear casing at the top side.

You mean i have to find open circuit (or infinite resistance) in ohm position in multimeter scale, right?

Between live connections and metal body there MUST be infinite resistance.
Therefore you have to find the part which isolation resistance is NOT infinite as this would be the fault.

 

[kaos981]

None of these.
I assume these are relative thin gauge wires.
Look for another pair of much thicker cables in red and blue, coming out of the gear casing at the top side.

Done it mate.. and its moving!!! After lifting the body i measured the bottom resistance on the heater... no restance, first issue resolved. I imagine the upper side pair resistance are for steam, right?
Now, it is possible to remove only the broken resistance and fix it or i've to change the entire heater?
Any of you guys sell it?

Between live connections and metal body there MUST be infinite resistance.
Therefore you have to find the part which isolation resistance is NOT infinite as this would be the fault.

I'll try to examine all the components after lunch...
meanwhile, thanks!

 

[W1cht3lm@nn]

no restance, first issue resolved. I imagine the upper side pair resistance are for steam, right?
Now, it is possible to remove only the broken resistance and fix it or i've to change the entire heater?
Any of you guys sell it?

Congratulations!
The upper pair of connections is only a resistance connected in series with the motor of the brewunit, saeco had a rather anacronistic way of construction. at that point.

Unfortunately you can only change the entire heater without doing a very big hassle with strong tools and much competence of metal workings.

Chances are good that the broken heater is also the reason for the RCD tripping. Disconnect it and prove that for yourself.

Which heater is assembled at the moment?
-new "boiler j" type: SAECO Durchlauferhitzer Boiler J Edelstahl Vienna Magic Royal Incanto GEBRAUCHT | eBay
-old "real boiler" type: Boiler einbaufertig für Saeco Vienna Caffe Grande Caffe Crema Trevi Digital | eBay

If you have the old type and want to upgrade to the newer boiler J then you would need a complete kit like this: SAECO Boiler J Edelstahl Incanto einbaufertig inkl. Auslaufstutzen und Support | eBay

The newer boiler heats up faster and doesnt corrode like the old one, but has to be descaled more strictly as it can be blocked by scale much faster.
If you want to stay at the older type, i have an electrically working piece to offer. But its badly scaled and needs to be disassembled by a competent, as the screws are nearly all broken and corroded in its bores.

Edit: Here is a picture of the part lurking around: http://www.flickr.com/photos/41623972@N03/8100859429/in/set-72157631771228900

 

[kaos981]

Which heater is assembled at the moment?
-new "boiler j" type: SAECO Durchlauferhitzer Boiler J Edelstahl Vienna Magic Royal Incanto GEBRAUCHT | eBay

This one... already ordered now because only 4 available...

but has to be descaled more strictly as it can be blocked by scale much faster.

Don't beat me.. but i never descaled the coffee machine
I promise that with the new one i'll do, maybe because of this i had this problem?
However in the afternoon i'll try to unplug and check if the RCD goes off..

 

[W1cht3lm@nn]

Don't beat me.. but i never descaled the coffee machine

You're in luck, beating isnt going to work through our thin connecting lines.
But, how long and for which amounts of coffee cups did it work that way?
I think you were using it not that much, otherwise you have very good water quality!

I promise that with the new one i'll do, maybe because of this i had this problem?

The broken heater shouldnt be related to scale as it is merely a block of metal with a thin water pipe running through.
Therefore it cannot overheat even if completely blocked by scale.

 

[kaos981]

I see the German price is lower than here in Italy on ebay (viva l'Italia...). Can you raccomand me an ebay seller that sell a good ratio price/quality descaling?
P.s.: Beer paid if you think to come in Italy ( i live near the trasimeno lake) for holidays

 

[W1cht3lm@nn]

I see the German price is lower than here in Italy on ebay (viva l'Italia...).

Seldom enough..
But a pleasure to help out someone in the homeland of saeco!

Can you raccomand me an ebay seller that sell a good ratio price/quality descaling?

There are many sellers who offer my preferred "Amidosulfonsäure" or "sulfamic acid".
E.G. that: Amidosulfonsäure 450 g im Clip-Beutel | eBay
or that: Amidosulfonsäure 1kg im Eimer | eBay

I would recommend solving 50 grams of it in 0.5 liter of water per descale "to go sure". The half of it should also be enough if descaled on regular basis.

P.s.: Beer paid if you think to come in Italy ( i live near the trasimeno lake) for holidays

Thank you, I hope the day will come for a trip to Italy.